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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #252
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 15 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 252

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. The Iridium Standard
         2. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
         3. Re: Jump space theory
         4. ID4: Spoiler Warning

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:00:09 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: The Iridium Standard

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 07/14/96 at 01:11 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:
> 
>>>The governments of the French, Dutch, Italians, English, and Germans 
>>>the 17th and 18th century still did everything they could to maximize
>>>amount of gold they had.  Did *they* think the gold brought back from
>>>new world destroyed the Spanish economy?  I doubt it.
> 
>>So do I (in fact, I _know_ they didn't). What has that got to do with
>>it? 
> 
>Human nature, Hans, human nature.  Given similar circumstances people
>will react similarly.  As a rule, we don't learn much or easily from
>our mistakes, 

We seem to be discussing two different thing here. I was arguing about
the factual effects of various monetary systems and the true nature of
money. I thought you were too. Now it appears that you are arguing about
what people thought/will think about money. That's something entirely
different, something we may not even disagree on. (Although I'd like to 
think that there's at least the possibility that future generations 
_might_ learn a bit from the mistakes of past ones. After all, this is 
Science _fiction_ we're talking about here ;-)

>and sometimes the lessons we learn are wrong.

True, but sometimes they are right. I admit that economics is still an
immensely fuzzy and badly-understood subject, not nearly as clear-cut
as the simplified examples I gave in the previous post, but surely it
is at least a little better understood today than it was 300 years ago.

>>There are lots of things that can only be properly understood in
>>retrospect. It's not what they thought that's important, but wether
>>or not they were wrong.
> 
>And cultural differences can change what *you* think is right and wrong 
>from what *I* think is right and wrong.  Even about the same historical 
>event, even if we have the exact same references and sources.

But in factual matters at least one of us will be wrong. (There's always
the possibility that we will both be wrong, of course).
 
>History is NOT immutable!  

As a social phenomenon, no, but as a reflection of reality it is. We may 
never be able to determine the truth, but there is one. If an event took 
place at a specific time then there's an objective truth about when that 
event took place. No amount of later editing of history will change that. 

>A specific culture's experiences color their understanding of events, 
>including past events.  

True, but it dosen't alter the events. And sometimes the events can be
deduced from their effects.

>Anything historical, beyond basic facts (and even then more often than you'd
>suspect), is always an interpretation.  And as, over time, a culture's
>basic memes change it will re-evaluate the past to reflect its *new* beliefs.

But reinterpretation is of limited use in affecting the real world. If you
kill someone you may be able to change the historical record to make believe
you didn't, but no amount of reinterpretation will bring that person back to
life. History isn't quite as fluid as you make out. Reality has a way of
limiting the plausibility of the more imaginative reinterpretations.

And, of course, when it comes to economics, history is simply a mass of
data from which one may attempt to deduce economic facts. If those data
are valid there's an increased chance that the deductions will be valid
(so if the deductions turn out to be valid that's evidence (though not
proof) that the data was valid too).




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:05:08 +0100
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

Hi there

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:

>If you think Shakespeare is junk culture, I may be gravely offended...

Of course Shakespeare *was* junk (or at least pop) culture, to a large
degree, when it was written.  It is only centuries of perspective and
changed ideas that make it "classic", or whatever other label of
respectability you wish to assign it.  Much of Shakespeare was smutty,
or needlessly violent, or racist, or anti-semitic, etc., which are all
the charges thrown at much of junk/pop culture today.  However,
somehow it survived, and now we put it on a pedestal.

"Starting tonight, the classic `Carry On up the Kyber', an Imperial
Carry On Company production in three acts, examining the political and
military importance of the Kyber Pass on ancient Terra. - Capital
Stage & Theatre 150-1026"

...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothing
of British pop culture.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:23:27 +0100
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

Hi there

About the Gazelle.  This was originally a CT/High Guard design (from
Traders & Gunboats).  The external tanks were drop tanks - the fuel
was all used prior to entering jump to open the way into jump space,
and the tanks were dropped to reduce the vessel's displacement, so
increasing its range.  J-5 with tanks dropped, J-4 with tanks
retained, and J-2 (!) without the fuel in the tanks.  Fuel bladders
didn't work in the High Guard/MT designs because you couldn't use the
fuel directly - you had to pump it into more permanent tanks first.  I
think under MT you could design it with sufficient jump fuel to have
good performance without the tanks, but the tanks added to its
flexibility.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

From: Matthew Harelick <matth@interactive.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:00:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ID4: Spoiler Warning

> 
> From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:48:21 -0500
> Subject: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
> 
> OK, I finally went to see ID4, so you can talk about it and it wont upset me!
> 
> **SPOILER WARNING*****SPOILER WARNING*****SPOILER WARNING*****SPOILER WARNING**
> 
> I have a question for the physics types in our midst.  Would that plane
> really have done that to the ship like in the end of the movie?  Is the
> laser focal array that good of a target?
> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}

Why can't you just enjoy a movie without worrying about reality. I can 
point out lots of problems with being able to hack into an alien ship's
computer system too if I wanted to . 

However I am content to say "Its a summer movie" and simply enjoy it.

Matthew

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #252
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